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 Post subject: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Hi, I have a problem that hopefully you can help me solve.
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/docu ... x?mfr=true
In this picture, both pc1 and pc2,3,4 can connect to the internet
[there is a dsl modem and router where the globe is isp supplied]
pc2,3,4 can share files between themselves.
pc1 cannot share with pc2,3,4

What kind of a box should "network hub" be? :P


Last edited by malmal on Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:29 pm 
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In that picture, all 4 computers can see each other unless the first one is blocking the rest. The easiest way to set up the kind of network you're talking about is to replace the "hub" with a router.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:43 pm 
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The isp supplied modem is connected directly to a router.
Thats the problem, you cant string routers unless you disable dhcp in the second router [ converting it to a switch, then all 4 pcs see each other]
I think a bridge should work, but wired bridges are vapourware.
XP software bridge [bridging with two lan cards using the built in bridge in XP] might work if someone could tell me how. :)


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:18 pm 
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malmal wrote:
The isp supplied modem is connected directly to a router.
Thats the problem, you cant string routers unless you disable dhcp in the second router [ converting it to a switch, then all 4 pcs see each other]
I think a bridge should work, but wired bridges are vapourware.
XP software bridge [bridging with two lan cards using the built in bridge in XP] might work if someone could tell me how. :)


Just add a small switch to the router if you want more ports. What exactly are you trying to do if adding more ports is not it?


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Just add a small switch to the router if you want more ports. What exactly are you trying to do if adding more ports is not it?

In this picture, both pc1 and pc2,3,4 can connect to the internet
[there is a router and dsl modem where the globe is isp supplied]
pc2,3,4 can share files between themselves.
pc1 cannot share with pc2,3,4

What kind of a box should "network hub" be?


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:33 pm 
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malmal wrote:
Just add a small switch to the router if you want more ports. What exactly are you trying to do if adding more ports is not it?

In this picture, both pc1 and pc2,3,4 can connect to the internet
[there is a router and dsl modem where the globe is isp supplied]
pc2,3,4 can share files between themselves.
pc1 cannot share with pc2,3,4

What kind of a box should "network hub" be?


Hubs/switch you will want a switch

Switch - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product

you will then be able to branch out to the other computers since you will have more ports


I do not know what Kind of router you have but most home routers have a built in switch with 4 extra ports for 4 extra computers.


I really do not like the topology of the Microsoft network diagram. *question* Are you trying to setup a home network?


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:39 pm 
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malmal wrote:
The isp supplied modem is connected directly to a router.
Thats the problem, you cant string routers unless you disable dhcp in the second router


Incorrect, you can leave the dhcp server on in the second router, thereby basically setting up 2 networks.

Please tell us what you are trying to do so we can help you get it done.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Ascii style:

[modem]
[router
P1]---[P1 16x switch]----P1 computers
P2]---[P2 16x switch]----P2 computers

In this configuration all P1 and P2 computers see each other and can share files and see the internet..

BUT!

I want the P1 computers to NOT see or share files with P2.
I want the P2 computers to NOT see or share files with P1

Meanwhile all P1 computers can see and share with other P1 computers.
Same with P2 sharing with all other P2s
And both the P1 group and the P2 group can see the internet. :P


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:12 pm 
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How many computers are on the network? you can use passwords and workgroups for users on a simple peer to peer network. Are you just trying to restrict access? It sounds to me like you want to have 2 networks using the same internet connection, i'm not sure though

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/how-to-two- ... w-193.html


Last edited by John on Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:17 pm 
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These are mostly Win98 machines with a sprinkling of XP and linux and one Win 3.11.
They have to share easily within their own group.
Thats why I am looking for a hardware solution :P


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:21 pm 
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Your best bet is to have 3 routers.
The first router connects to the modem. Set it up with a lan ip of 192.168.1.1
The second router connects to the first router. Set it up with a lan ip of 192.168.2.1
The third router also connects to the first router. Set it up with a lan ip of 192.168.3.1

Then you've got 2 networks that cannot see each other at all.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Yes that was tried and seemed logical, but the is a conflict with more than one DHCP and NAT ?
I wish that would work.but I've been told it wont. :P

PS: That's where a wired bridge comes in.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:40 pm 
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I wonder if it would work if you used static ip addresses and set the pc's you wanted to talk to each other the same and gave all the pc's the same gateway and shut off dhcp on the router.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Shutting off the DHCP turns a router into a switch. I have used routers as switches before and they share as easily as a switch. :?


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:23 pm 
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There are no conflicts with using multiple routers. you plug the first router into the modem. Then you plug the other 2 routers into the first, using the internet ports, not the switch ports. Then they see the first router as if it were a modem, the first router hands out ip addresses to the other 2. That's the reason you have to use different lan ip address ranges (ie 192.168.1.1 for the first, 192.168.2.1 for the second and 192.168.3.1 for the third).

As I said, I've had my network set up like this and it worked well. I set up an open wireless network for anyone that came over and if they hooked up to it, they were not able to see any of my computers.

Maybe Scott can find the really good article on this that he pointed me to a few years ago.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Right. I'll try it tomorrow. Got all the stuff, just need to hook it up. Thanks
Tell you how it works out. :P


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Location: Pearl Ms
Down here in the south we would call this type of network a Heinz 57.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:37 pm 
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malmal, in the picture you provided it sounds like you are mistaking "PC 1" as being 1 LAN while "PC 2, PC 3, and PC 4" are a second LAN. If you look at the picture you will see that PC 1 is a common path (by using Internet Connection Sharing (PC 1 = ICS Host)) that the other computers (and printer) use to connect to the internet. In other words the only computer in that diagram that is actually accessing the Public network connection (Internet) is PC 1 and since PC 1 is sharing the internet connection (by using ICS) with several other devices (PC 2-4) a network hub is used in the diagram to act as a single point of connection for all the devices.

This is an old diagram and to achieve the same end result of this diagram all you have to do is connect a common router (with built in switch) to your Cable/DSL "modem". If you want to set up 2 separate LANs that use the same Internet connection then just follow Mike's advice.

-Evan


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:16 pm 
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OK tried it . First P2 computer worked .Saw the internet but didnt see any P1s.
Second and third P2 computer couldnt see out at all. This was with fixed ip or auto.
Oh well dont really need it. :)
Try again next weekend, might have got the addresses wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:24 am 
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Thanks for the link John.
Decided to get another outside line.
So three routers in one box is a wired bridge?
Sent this reply on my Win 3.11 box but the reply disappeared. :P


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:12 am 
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malmal wrote:
Image
In this picture, both pc1 and pc2,3,4 can connect to the internet [there is a dsl modem and router where the globe is isp supplied] pc2,3,4 can share files between themselves. pc1 cannot share with pc2,3,4

That is Incorrect. *All* of the PCs in that setup can share files with each other, and all of them can use the shared printer. Also, the internet connection being shared is probably dial-up, since there were very few routers with integral dial-up modems, or routers with serial ports (where you could connect an external modem). Without using one of those types of products, you would share the dial-up modem on one system (PC1) with the others on the network via the ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) software in Windows, which essentially turns PC1 into a router.

Quote:
What kind of a box should "network hub" be?

If I were sharing a dial-up modem connection today, I would find one of the older Apple Airport Extreme routers, since they had integral V.90 modems. To that I would add a 4-port (or more) gigabit switch. Then all 4 of the PCs could share the dial-up internet connection as well as files and printers, with the latter two at gigabit speeds.

If however you are sharing a DSL connection instead of dial-up, then you would just use a standard DSL Modem, most of which also include an integral router, 4-port switch and a wirless access point, like this one. The DSL line would connect to the DSL Modem, then all 4 PCs would connect to the ports on the switch (built-in to the modem).

If you are sharing a Cable internet connection instead of DSL, then you would use a Cable Modem. Since most Cable Modems don't include a router, switch, or wireless access point, you would connect the modem to a Router, most of which include a 4-port switch as well as a wireless access point, like this one.

In all of the above scenarios, all 4 PCs would be able to share files and printers with each other. Scott.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:29 am 
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malmal wrote:
I want the P1 computers to NOT see or share files with P2.
I want the P2 computers to NOT see or share files with P1

Meanwhile all P1 computers can see and share with other P1 computers.
Same with P2 sharing with all other P2s
And both the P1 group and the P2 group can see the internet.

This is a completely different question from your first post. In this case you want a segmented network, with the segments isolated. This can easily be done with multiple routers. Here you can see an example of how to create a two-segment LAN, with one segment (PCs connected to the "Internal" router) able to see the other (PCs connected to the "external" router), but not the other way around: http://www.grc.com/nat/nats.htm

Image

If you want both segments to be completely isolated from each other, then merely add another internal router (total of 3 routers), and connect some of the PCs to that. PCs connected to the external router can be seen by all of the PCs on any of the internal routers, but PCs on the external router will not be able to see any PCs on any of the internal routers. Likewise, PCs on one internal router will not be able to see any of the PCs on any other internal router. Scott.


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Scott wrote:
This is a completely different question from your first post.


Thanks for chiming in 3 days later Scott. <g>

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: lan hardware config
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Better late than never. <g> Scott.


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